> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-virus@lucifer.com
> [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> Of sodom
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 7:37 AM
> To: virus@lucifer.com
> Subject: Re: Santa Claws - was RE: virus: Re: inconsistent worldviews
>
>
> It seems to me, and Ill think that you will agree, that this
> Santa thing, which
> is not relevant the original string, is a question of
> perspective.
> Frankly, I
> believe that you are accurate in everything you are saying -
> but - I come from
> an middle class neighborhood that was filled with nothing but
> Methodists,
> Luthersns, Mormons and Catholics (My family - Athiest and the
> Nadel's around the
> corner were the Jewish family). My street was full of kids
> about my age and
> Christmas was clearly the funnest time of the year for
> everyone involved. I bet
> this is a view help by many millions, so I can sure you can
> understand my view.
>
Of course it is a myth held dear by millions. We mostly grow up to hold the
religion (or non-religion) of our parents :-) That still doesn't mean it is
anywhere near valid. No matter how many support it. I strongly encourage
atheist parents (all parents actually) any and everywhere, to declare
parties on little or any or even no excuse - and the fact that the neighbors
are pigging out on xmas candy is a perfectly adequate reason for holding
your own saturnalia or equivalent. I was simply trying to argue against the
Santa "clause" and the mind set that goes with it. Not against imagination
or against fun. On the other hand, the forced bon homie and strained
joviality of the xmas season most western families have experienced is only
the tip of the ice-berg. I used to volunteer for EMR duty during xmas (UK
and South Africa), so that the Christian staff could have time with their
families. And the rumor is true. More suicides, more family violence, more
gang violence, more random violence, more drunken driving related fatalities
and serious traffic injuries than at any other time of the year.
> now - I do still agree that it is better to teach a more
> rational holiday. I
> have already agreed with my wife, we will not teach Santa and
> Xmas and such. We
> will still celebrate the winter season, and time with our
> families. We will
> probably give out gifts and such. But we have agreed to have
> an Athiests
> Holiday.
>
>
Nothing wrong and everything right with a celebration of life and renewal,
which is where most of the northern hemisphere winter solstice festivals
originated. In Europe, most of Asia and in Russia, they celebrate the New
Year with all of the fervored attention to feasting and fun that the USA
seems to dedicate to xmas shopping.
> Also - on the Citizens at peace scale - The places you
> mentioned are really
> messed up. Look at the parents they seem to be making from
> these "nicer" "Much
> more responsible" children. Much of the X-Sovient Uninon is
> war torn, and the
> Republics. Poverty is rampant across Aftica and the Far East.
> These Children
> seem nicer to you becasue of reasons other than Santa, more
> responsible maybe
> beacuse they have to work to provide for their family? Also -
> they may not teach
> Santa - so they teach one of a million God types, I am sure
> the youngsters are
> not explained death in a "real" sense. So dont go of on the
> idea that these
> people are bred to be rational.
>
Ummm. As Prof Tim noted, the causes for "nicer" are difficult to discern and
it is highly unlikely that xmas alone is to blame - except perhaps, in so
far as it is a symptom of a strange if not sick society. On the other hand,
it is surprising how many otherwise well-informed people accept CNN's very
event-centric view of the world. Despite economic chaos in the CIS, tribal
troubles in Africa and occasional flare-ups in parts of the Middle East,
life in all these places is at least as "good" for most people, as it is in
most of the USA. The areas I was thinking of would qualify as upper-income
Boston, as against the poorer areas in Washington that I think you
visualized. And even in Washington, "crime capital" of the USA, most people
live their lives out without really being much affected by the crime levels,
except possibly as a background stress. For each Lebanon there is a Bahrain,
for each Serbia-Croatia there is a Georgia, and for each Rwanda there is a
Botswana. In the places I was thinking of, children don't carry the burden
of having "to work to provide for their family", education standards are
higher and the children do better in SAT batteries than US kids, and at
least in the CIS they are not generally burdened by religion of any sort. If
the Soviet Union left nothing else behind it, it did leave a legacy
indicating that it is possible to live well without god-myths and similar
superstitions. My significant other is a Georgian brought up in Russia and I
have many academic friends from the CIS. None have any religious beliefs at
all, and their children are a delight in comparison to the children of most
of my American colleagues.
As another thought, my parents and millions of other Europeans their age grew up during a "real" war, where people were shot, their neighborhoods bombed and friends "disappeared" and they seem to have avoided much of the harm that people imagine that children growing up and exposed to violence will automatically suffer. And both of my parents remember having tons of fun. My father's family fled on foot and bicycle from occupied Europe between 1939 and 1941, always one step behind the Axiz tide, finally escaping through Vichy France into Spain. Always at the risk of being caught in one of the civilian round-ups or being stopped at a checkpoint because the younger children spoke German instead of the local language. Sometimes there was no food, other times no shelter. Sometimes they hid in ditches while the roads were strafed. Yet he remembers this as a part of the happiest time of his life (though he still gets tense at the sound of large rotary aircraft engines). Did he understand real death? My mother, who lived in Holland as a child, where many of her friends starved or froze to death, during the winter after WW II ended, also cannot have missed developing an understanding of "real death". While living in "civilized" countries that you almost certainly view as peaceful and well ordered. I think that any harm she took was transitory.
> what you are describing is a childs hell.
I must disagree. Please explain how you arrived at this conclusion?
> Children NEED
> imagination - it is
> fundamental to proper mental development. I have spent a lot
> of time with
> Children, and so far I have learned one thing about their
> behavior - Good
> parents almost always have good children, bad parents almost
> always have bad
> children. I have only been through the US, Mexico, The
> Caribean and Ireland and
> spent time with Children, and as far as I can tell, they are
> all very similar,
> regardless of their beliefs.
>
I agree. Both on imagination and behaviour.
Of course children need to have their imagination stimulated. Of course they need fun. Of course they need opportunities to "break-out". I don't think there should be less of it, I think there should be much more of it. Adults should try it too. It would do most of them a power of good. Of course, stretching the imagination requires thought. Something children are more comfortable than most adults (present company excepted of course). Any time is the best time for a party.
Children are similar yes. But attitudes, especially attitudes to books and learning are not. Speaking from experience, neither is behaviour.
DasHermit (Sehr gescheiter Tim. DasHermit nicken seines kopfes.)
> carlw wrote:
>
> > I have and then some.
> >
> > Mainly in Africa and in the near and far east, where Santa
> Claus is an alien
> > to most children. Also in the ex Soviet Union and
> Republics, where this kind
> > of nonsense has died out. In both places, presents are
> given and received by
> > real people instead of by an arbitrary monster who gives
> some "bad" children
> > of "rich" parents wonderful gifts, while "good" children of
> "poor" parents
> > get little or nothing. Do you really think that the modern
> Western concept
> > (dating only from the late victorian era) where things are
> "given" and
> > subsequently "expected" rather than seeing the effort which
> the giver makes,
> > is preferable to a more human and real model. One which has
> the advantage of
> > not teaching children that the world works one way, and letting them
> > discover much later in life that Santa does not really
> exist and they can't
> > expect things to come from nowhere? For some reason the
> children in the
> > places I mentioned seem to be so much "nicer", so much more
> responsible than
> > most Western children I have met. I wonder if Santa "Claws"
> has anything to
> > do with this?
> >
> > TheHermit
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-virus@lucifer.com
> > > [mailto:owner-virus@lucifer.com]On Behalf
> > > Of Tim Rhodes
> > > Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 12:31 PM
> > > To: virus@lucifer.com
> > > Subject: Re: virus: Re: inconsistent worldviews
> > >
> > >
> > > DasHermit wrote:
> > >
> > > >Bill wrote:
> > > >> [...] after all, we all like to think of Santa as real
> when we are
> > > >> little, and I don't see kids going crazy over it
> (except for the
> > > >>next morning).
> > > >
> > > >I'd say that kids who are not loaded down with
> illusions, not to say
> > > >delusions, about fat, elderly men, who invite them to sit on
> > > their laps and
> > > >who offer them sweeties, are not only happier but also
> much safer.
> > >
> > >
> > > You haven't spent much time around children, have you?
> > >
> > > -Prof. Tim
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>