Re: virus: shell games

Bill Roh (
Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:41:40 -0500

This one had me up for a while Reed, touche.

We differ in opinion only a little. I do think reason has led to violence in some cases, though I think that a good bit of the violence happened where the two met. It happened in the cases you mention when the people in positions of power let their "reason" reach the level of "faith". I would say that when Communism saw that it was doomed to failure, it endoured in spite of the reason against it - mailnly oppression of the mind. Had the ability to "reason" remained, then their course might have been changed. Still today many of us, myself included see the value in a socialized way of living. The Red Scare was much of the same - The Soviets and Communism was indeed a threat to democracy and the way of living espoused in the US. But the methods used were certainly not well thought out (although, today there is one superpower).

Just for the record, I am not really Pro-American. I am pro Bill of Rights. I think they adequately guarantee enough freedom to permit nearly everyone the choice of lifestyle they choose, and so far, I have not seen another document that does so so elegantly. I realize that was a different thread, but it popped in my head.

I do wish to offer a reconciliatory note, I really thought about what you said here, and it gives me pause. I like communism in idea, I'm very disappointed that so far it has not lived up to it's potential. This made me question "reason" regarding such failures and unfortunate events like the Red Scare. These are sensitive subjects, like Tuskagee - There was no faith here that I can see, and an awful lot of "reason". I think I understand evil. It bothers me that I can see the reality of what happened, I can joke about it, I can fantize it and there is no unpleasantness involved. But when I replace in my mind the concepts of "People" suffering with "Freedom" suffering, I am sickened and I have to work to maintain my objectivity.

Always learning something I hope

Bill Roh

Reed Konsler wrote:

> Reed:
> >> Agreed. The inquisition was an act of fear, not faith.
> >>
> >> Hatred, fear, anger, rage, revenge, bloodlust...each cloaks itself
> >> in sheepskin.
> >>
> >Nice thought - but wrong - Fear driven by faith. Necessitated by that faith.
> >Reason cant make that claim. Reason cannot drive fear and does not fead fear
> >or bloodlust or the others. Faith calls for death and destruction
> >explicitly. That is the difference.
> >
> >Bill Roh
> We differ in opinion. Communism is a "rational" least,
> it cloaks itself in reason. The "Red scare", the RAND corporations
> upside-down game theories...all of these were abject fear cloaked
> in reason and mathematics. Many times fear drives reason, and reason
> produces. Now, you go ahead a cleave everything negative from reason
> and put it in some other category...even the stormtroopers were dressed
> in shining white armor. If you can shuffle categories like a Kantian shell
> game, I can shuffle all the faster becuase I don't claim to be completely
> rational.
> Try me.
> Reed
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> Reed Konsler
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