re: Re: virus: Re:[genius] Sexism

Zloduska (
Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:57:17 -0600

SG wrote:

>One more round...

Eccch...I'm getting dehydrated.

>And that's what your platform should be. The rapists and such are the weak

Especially since they LOOK for the weak type of person to target.

>>"Self-righteous"? No, I don't think so. I'm not an ignoramus, either.
>What do you think is the common element in all human beings?<
>Look up the meaning. To the degree that you judge others as being "bad" is
the degree that you judge yourself as being "good".

I don't think I'm that clear-cut and simple, personally. But what do I know...

>You've made 'Woman' your alter-ego. You feel raped when it happens to any
woman. >That's probably why you didn't have much of an emotional response when you heard it happened to me.

Geez- my heart is not made of stone! It's pretty hard for you to detect any emotional response from me sitting where you are, isn't it? I did feel very sorry for you as well as sad and surprised when you shared your story, but how are you to tell unless I send you a tear-soaked letter in response? Above all I assume you do not want my pity- and that you still do not want my pity, so I didn't give any. You kept telling me how recovered you are now, so what's the point? You used yourself as an example of why rape victims shouldn't feel as bad as the rapist.

> You *know* I am not a racist or a
>sexist, and I know it better than anyone else, although you like to accuse
>me of being one.
>You sure you're not a sexist? Positive?

YES! Thank you very much. Example: I think men can have the same understand about women as I can. I have a few close male friends, who I marvel at because we are so much on the same wavelength that I feel the truly understand my viewpoint and perception about gender issues, and share the same outlook on life, more or less. I don't think you have to be a woman to *get* it, so I don't exclude or hate men. I think these same men understand even more so than many females I know.

And I try not to be prejudice against my own gender, even though most of my friends (up until recently) have been male. Although "girls are icky" still runs through my mind sometimes...;-) Anyhow, no, I am sure I am not sexist. At least by my definition I am not. What's yours- do green eyes make me sexist?

>>I'd rather be dead than be raped, personally.<
>And why is that?

That's not something I can easily explain, and esp. not on this list.

>Oh man. This does *not* compare. I never said I was perfect, or that I
>had never been hurtful to someone. So what if I told a lie to a friend
>five years ago and they found out? It doesn't matter.
>It's not the finding out, it's the act of lying (although, lying isn't
always wrong). Why don't you think it matters?

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying it doesn't _compare_. It's getting blown out of proportion by equating it with rape.

>>We are talking about sexism and rape here, and just because I
>may have made mistakes in my life<
>Oh, when you do them they're "mistakes". I see.

Goddamnit, I am *not* on trial here. Everyone makes "mistakes", but not drastic acts of violence on *purpose*, to harm someone. Stealing a candy bar when you're a kid is a "mistake". You learn from it. Malicious acts of sexual assault go beyond that, to me.

>I am not guilty of the us/them meme.
>How can you be so sure? The brainwashed do not know they are brainwashed.

Couldn't I reply with the same remark then?

>And please don't tell me to go see "Dead Man Walking" to change my life.
>Have you seen it? What was wrong with it? I was actually thinking of "The
Crossing Guard".

Not the entire film. I didn't hate it, but for starters it's a Hollywood flick...

>*gag* You know, I believe the time has come to stop making excuses for
>criminals, such as, "Oh, they are human, and you have sinned too."
>And why should we not see them as human? Why should we not realize our
own "sinfulness"?
>Because it would be to painful to look at?

I didn't mean to say they are not human. I meant it should not be used as an excuse for everything. As in, "They shouldn't be held responsible for their crime...they are only human, and you have 'sinned' too". I don't believe in Sin, by the way.

>I'm wondering why you identified with "anyone who doesn't live a life that
one can be proud of".

I didn't identify with it; I was reacting because you implied that.

>>You know, I'm glad things worked out so well for you, and it is resolved.
>Generally, this is not the case.<
>But it can be.

Doesn't change that for the majority, it isn't.

>> A lot of people do not want to forgive
>their attacker, and choose not to. I can understand this also.<
>Because of the us/them meme.

*makes wanking motion at the mention of the us/them meme again*

>>You must realize that for most sexual-assault survivors, they are screwed
up for the
>rest of their life, and they do indeed suffer every single day.<
>Needlessly. And because of the rhetoric that you, and others like you,
spout. When you turn them (rapists) into monsters, it makes rape that much MORE repulsive and incomprehensible. It becomes even MORE difficult to overcome.

I think the real problem comes before me, and others like me. Like the rapists, and the society that breeds rape. Are you suggesting that instead of ending rape itself, we 'humanize' the rapists and simply make women better at coping with it? So instead of eliminating actual rape, we transform rape into something less repulsive and easier to overcome?

Gah! Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me.

I think we need to view rape for what it is. For freakin' centuries, rape has just been seen as another *thing* women had to go through, much like their menstrual cycles. It was an ordeal, like housework and pregnancy, that could not be avoided. In order to get rid of that awful "just accept it and get over it" attitude, rape needs to be seen as the terrible thing it is. Just maybe, if men get it into their heads that it is not OK, they'll stop doing it! As it was (and still is), nothing more than a consequence of war, life, and the 'lifestyle' of the victim. ('Gee, you had it coming.')

>>And as for
>the attacker, if they have it so damn bad, then why, oh why do they
>repeatedly do it again and again, or else never admit to their crime?<
>Don't you think that's bad? To be stuck in cycle where you treat others
around you as objects for ego gratification? How do you feel when you're overly selfish?

Badly. So? Doesn't justify a thing.

> It's
>not a simple cause-and-effect reason that makes people rape, as in they are
>in pain, and so they inflict in on someone else. They do it because they
>_can_, and there is no flimsy excuse.
>Do you do things because you _can_? Why not, if you agree they are just as
human as you are?

Rather, I mean because they can get away with it. It's true that if I could get away with not doing my homework, I usually wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't go out and murder someone just because I would not be punished.

>>Why adopt a passive, apathetic attitude like that?<
>It's not pathetic, it's level 3 <snigger>

Oh boy...

>>What if I don't want sympathy- just results?<
>Sympathy wins results, silly.

But it doesn't always work. If you're too polite and nice, that works against you.

>>Next you're going to be telling me I'm experiencing "cognitive dissonance".
> I don't think I'm a different animal from any other human being. Or
>different from many (non-human) animals; I feel a close kinship to them.<
>Even to rapists? You said "any other human being".

No, I'm not a different animal. Doesn't mean our behavior isn't vastly different.

>>Basically, we cannot agree because I think your statement about the
>suffering of rapists, and your seemingly 'light' view of rape is wrong.
>Also, your belief is destructive to fighting sexual violence.<
>Yeah, lets make it a real 'heavy' view so that the suffering women can
*really* suffer. >Let's tell them that rape is so bad that they shouldn't go on living. Just grab a gun and exit.

I never said that. I'm not commanding people how to deal with rape here. My main problem is dealing with the "rape culture" that we live in.