RE: virus: Paul and James

carlw (
Thu, 25 Mar 1999 18:55:29 -0600

It is in "The English book of Common Prayer"


In 1549, under the reign of Edward VI, successor to Henry VIII, the primary language of public worship in England and other areas ruled by Edward was changed from Latin to English, and the first Book of Common Prayer came into use. It was first used on Pentecost Sunday, 9 June 1549, and the occasion is now commemorated "on the first convenient day following Pentecost." The Book was the work of a commission of scholars, but primarily of Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury. It was based primarily upon the Latin worship tradition of the Use of Sarum (similar to, but not identical with, the Roman rite used by most Roman Catholics between 1600 and 1950), with some elements taken from the Greek liturgies of the Eastern Church, from ancient Gallican (French) rites, from the new Lutheran order of service, and from the Latin rite of Cologne.

As given in the Catechism:

OUR Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation; But deliver us from evil. Amen.

This is my recollection of the 'Use of Sarum' Medieval Latin version which was used up to that time.

Pater noster qui es in caelis sanctificetur nomen tuum; adveniat regnum tuum; fiat voluntas tua; sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie; et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris; et ne nos incudas in temptationem; sed libera nos a malo. Amen.

So blame it on Thomas Cranmer - he has been blmaed for so much else I am sure he can stand it. But I'd say that "trespasser" is not a bad translation for "debitoribus" - although "a debtor" would be better. But I guess that "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors" was far too communist for Tudor England... The Lollards (and Wycliffe) were not that much earlier that they could be forgotten - or ignored.


> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> []On Behalf
> Of Eric Boyd
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 1999 6:39 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: virus: Paul and James
> Hi,
> Eva-Lise Carlstrom <> writes:
> <<
> The King James has "debts" in the prayer itself, but "trespasses" in
> the next passage. Of course, the Lord's Prayer as commonly used is not
> in the Bible in precisely that form, and its context indicates that
> Jesus was presenting it as an example of how one might daily pray, an
> illustration of the kind of personal, direct, common-language prayer
> he advocated, as opposed to rote ritual precisely like what it has
> become.
> >>
> What an interesting point. You haven't solved the mystery, of course,
> but you have given me some food for thought. For instance, what if
> it's the case that the Lord's prayer has trespasses in *no* current or
> past version; i.e. that somebody adapted the words, in the sense of a
> common-language prayer, but it later became so ritualized -- what does
> this indicate about (a) America's (and Canada's) evolving attitude to
> the bible and (b) memetics in general?
> ERiC