Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:36:56 -0800

Dave Pape wrote:

> My problem with L3 is that it always seems to be about (lost my copy of
> VotM, so can't check up) an enlightened person somehow in control of their
> ideas, mastering the memes which control the mind of the level 2
> individual.

Sounds pompus, don't it?

> If it's just about idea systems in control of other idea systems, then it's
> not QUITE as pants, but still brutal enough as a categorisation to be
> misleading and daft.

I agree that it doesn't slice the potatoes anywhere near as thin as some of the competing products, but it's user friendly. Richard wrote "Virus of the Mind" at something like an 8th grade reading-level, and it certainly makes sense that the conceptual framework that it's meant to impart to the reader feels like a blunt instrument compared to some of the scalples and other fine tools that you're already using. It makes sense that you wouldn't have much use for it. I'm not sure how long you've been lurking, but you may have noticed that I don't say a whole lot about level 3. I do, however, understand what people mean when they use the term, and I can converse with them on the topic.


!!!!!!!!!QUAGMIRE ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at me; fighting Richard's battles. Reed, have I learned nothing from your sacrifice? What makes this a quagmire is that to claim to understand L3 and not reject it amounts to an implicit claim that one has acheived L3 status and that anyone who says otherwise is obviously still wallowing in L2. That doesn't leave me much to work with, and that's why I generally say very little on the topic and stay out of the Brodie Level 3 skermishes. The message that I'm hoping impart is this: I can understand why people on this list would not have much use for the L3 framework, but to go on and on about it just imprints it on all of our consciousnesses and keeps it current. Is that what you hope to accomplish?

You'll notice that Richard's retorts to all of his detractors' posts are short and appear to be just dashed off. Perhaps they are really subtly ingenious jolts designed to awaken the Buddha within each of us, or maybe He just doesn't put much into them. Either way, your derrission is not costing Him any sleep or self-esteem, but it does get the name Richard Brodie repeated endlessly on this list. Richard Brodie. Level 3. Richard Brodie. Level 3. Richard Brodie. Level 3. Richard Brodie. Level 3. Richard Brodie. Level 3.

You find it distasteful and He's luxuriating in it. You hate it, He love's it, and everyone who posts on the topic perpetuates it, and here I am "down in it" (as Trent Resnor put it) with all the (other) level 2ers giving fuel to that which I don't want to see burn any brighter.

> When we think about idea systems controlling ideas,
> we're talking about cognitive circuits whose input is the output of sensory
> transducer circuits or other cognitive circuits. There must be LOADS of
> tiers/levels of that kind of input-output control relationship involved in
> any culture-level thinking.

I hear you saying that Richard Brodie did not write the final word on cognitive science with "Virus of the Mind," (Here, let me say that again; "Virus of the Mind" by Richard Brodie as seen on Oprah. Did I mention that it's 30% off at I certainly agree.

> Interesting that the level 3 people are the obviously most senior apes in
> the troupe: does level 3 bring with it special headgear of pomp, by any
> chance?

Or does it fit best on the alpha male who's already wearing the headgear?

> When you reach level 3 can you post to JOM EMIT and not get the
> piss taken out of you?

I don't know. I know that JOM is the Journal of Memetics. I don't know the EMIT acronym.

> >Well, like all of us, I could go on forever on this topic, but I have no
> >intention of doing so.
> I've had the last word then. Nice! :)

You haven't had the last word just yet, but you're welcome to it.

As you may or may not know, I'm a bit of a quotation fetishist, so I'll leave you all with one from Palmer J. Parker. Know that it's a sentiment that I wish to direct to myself as much as to anyone.

"Anyone who acts in the power of the Spirit is going to gain a reputation as a compelling person. When that happens, temptation grows--the temptation to believe one's press clippings, to believe that one's reputation is a true mirror of one's soul, to give other people only what they want so that one's reputation can grow larger, to act more and more for the sake of reputation and less and less in the light of right action."

God! He thinks there's a moral to his post. Somebody open a window!