> Kenneth Boyd wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Schneider John wrote:
> > >
> > > Jim Gentry wrote:
> > > > So what do you think, is Bill Clinton a level 3? He seems to
> > > > be willing to do what is "useful." How about other examples of
> > > > level 3 activity.
> > >
> > > That occurred to me as well... another example is religion - some
> > > Christians, when confronted with enough argumentation which cannot
> > > be gotten around, just say "it's right for me, and that's that,"
> > > which sounds rather level 3 to me.
> > >
> > > - JPS
> >
> > You'll have to show me that argumentation sometime [NOT ON THIS
> > LIST! Please, I don't need a flame war on this list....]
>
> I think most anybody, when faced with the fact that their theories,
> in the end, are based upon accepted axioms, makes a similar argument.
> Only very recently (1930's or so) have physicists stopped 'believing'
> in their theories, and started viewing them as 'useful' rather than
> 'right'; and I have thought of such a switch in viewpoint as a step
> from level 2 to level 3, but we could now call it a step to level
> zero, since all they're saying is "it works for us."
>
> > This [facetiously?] suggests a new level:
> > Level 0
> >
> > Sketch of concept:
> > Level 0 is *also* acquired by formal education. It is distinguished
> > by a remarkable lack of memetic integrity, compared to Levels 1, 2,
> > and 3.
> > Until the advent of more ad-hoc levels, Level 0 is considered to
> > attempt to masquerade as either level 2 or level 3. It may be
> > distinguished from both of these, over time, by the lack of
> > consistent intense resolve towards claimed goals.
> >
> > The lack of memetic integrity consists in the expression [not
> > too close in time, that is inhuman] of many apparently-dominant
> > memes that directly attack each other.
> >
> > Your example about "Christians" [I won't classify Clinton; it
> > would not surprise me if many of those who voted for him are
> > Level 0, even if Clinton is of a "higher" level] defines a
> > nominal phenotype of the Christians that functions at Level 0.
> >
> > Given that many churches these days are full of devout unbelievers,
> > many of these pseudotheists, I would not be surprised if many of
> > these nominal phenotypic Christians are really mimics hailing from
> > some other religion.
> >
> > [Oh. Pseudotheist: someone who is convinced that he believes in a
> > God, but doesn't. This may be discerned by the lack of hardship
> > caused by his beliefs. "No pain, no gain".]
>
> (You seem to employ a time-invariant notion of "belief"... if our
> definition of belief allows it to vary over time, then we don't need
> the confusing term 'pseudotheist'; [one's beliefs can be wrong, but
> how can one believe he believes something, when in actuality he does
> not believe it? That's confusing.... (e.g. I believe that 1 + 1 = 3,
> and I am a 'pseudothreeist'.)])
1) Yes. My operational distinction between "belief" and "opinion" is
time-stability. "Opinion" can completely invert in an instant, while a
"belief" takes major effort to change. A "conviction" should take
nothing less than total mental breakdown to change.
2) Of course it's confusing! Having experienced 'believing that I
believe something without actually believing it', I regret to say that it
*is* possible.
The problem is that one's metaknowledge can be subject to inaccuracy as well.
> Anyway, this is how I interpret level 0: I've said before that I
> like to think of the levels in terms of 'modes':
>
> level 1 mode: "survival mode"
> level 2 mode: "trying to understand mode"
> level 3 mode: "consciousness of purpose mode"
>
> So, a Christian might say, "I have chosen service to God as my
> purpose, and I find it fulfilling (i.e. 'it works for me')", which
> certainly utilizes level three mode, even if just for a brief moment.
> This would explain why I called it a level three argument.
>
> Question: is there a level zero *mode*, or is level zero just
> a description of the amount of time spent in various modes?
> (e.g. a level 3 mind presumably spends a great deal of time
> operating in level 3 mode, or even all three modes at once;
> whereas, a level 0 mind just hops up there on occasion...)
If the conjectured level 0 exists, it would have its own mode.
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