RE: virus: FAQ: question (c) - Believing

James Veverka (
Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:50:58 -0400 (EDT)

Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit


I certainly have never converted anyone using anything. But..... I have noticed that alot of kids on alt.atheist, when they delurk, say the arguments they have witnessed have made the difference in their "fence-sitting". All have come down on the side of agnostic deism or outright atheism.

In this marketplace of ideas how do memes get replaced through reason? It is evident that conversions to atheism among the young are occurring.

In my way of looking at the human body there is a sensational component to memes, however slight, that is part and parcel to any meme. In order to change a world view memeplex, it would seem that we cant ignore the physical and emotional reinforcements (tie-rods) to the memeplex.

Another book that I thought was revolutionary for its time (late 70s) was GOING SANE, Hart & Corrier. ( trying to remember it right.....) A group of psychiatrists from all disciplines spent 2 years shrinking each other and trying to find a viable psychologic theory and treatment. What they came up with was The Disorder Theory. This theory explained how parents disorder children verbally through the implantation of inconsistent views and belief systems.

In their treatment program, they approached disorder by taking into account that for ideations (memeplexes?) there are affective and sensational components that have evolved along with the ideation. What do you think of these components within the memetics scheme?

If any of you have done any personal dream work I can tell you that after reading their booksand following some directions, I was able to have "clear light" dreams. I would know I was dreaming and then enter into a creative state, calling things into existence and then anihilating them with a thought. Doing magic. I remember one night I remembered the previous dreams within each dream. Then during the 4th dream I was at the top of a 40' ladder ( was painter for summer) a person below was theatening me. I was fearful until I remembered the previous dreams, THEN I snickered and flew away!!

Anyway, the disordering theory was new to me because I had read alot of Wilhelm Reich and Arthur Janov (Primal Theory) at that time and it cured me of Freud and his disciples. After all the new age consciousness stuff of the 60s I adventured into some of the Freudian offshoots. I can't help but see some close resemblances in the Disorder theory and the implantation of memes.

Anyone...please comment on this possible association. Especially if you have read Going Sane..........jim

Content-Disposition: Inline
Content-Type: Message/RFC822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

Received: from ( by; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 06:35:16
	-0700 (PDT)

Return-Path: <>
Received: from ( []) by (8.8.8/ms.graham.14Aug97)
	with ESMTP id GAA20376; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 06:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (from majordom@localhost) by (8.9.1/8.9.1) id
	HAA21768 for virus-outgoing; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 07:27:25 -0600
From: "Richard Brodie" <> To: <>
Subject: RE: virus: FAQ: question (c) - Believing Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 06:27:15 -0700
Message-ID: <000201beba57$72820fc0$c1243fce@rb4010> MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0
In-Reply-To: <> Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender:
Precedence: bulk

I misunderstood you. I thought you were proposing that the "When you understand why you don't believe in the other gods, you'll understand why I don't believe in yours" approach was an effective way to convert people. If you agree with me that it is ineffective, the discussion is resolved.

Richard Brodie
Author, "Virus of the Mind: The New Science of the Meme" Free newsletter!

-----Original Message-----
From: []On Behalf Of Dan Plante
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 1999 5:25 AM
Subject: RE: virus: FAQ: question (c) - Believing

At 05:55 PM 18/06/99 -0700 Richard Brodie wrote:

I think you'll find it an interesting exercise. I predict zero conversions and an expansion of your model of how people operate.

If I had to take a wild guess, I would also anticipate near-zero conversions, so I'm not sure what would cause me to reevaluate my understanding of individual or group behaviourial dynamics.