virus: Fantasy (was "Confession" about "The Sign")

Brett Robertson (
Thu, 27 May 1999 15:11:51 -0500 (EST)

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I have described "fantasy" (it might be defined as "a projected reality which does not include the logical participation of the individual within a true enactment of the events imagined"). I contrast it from "imagination" in that a person who is imagining has logical reasons for assuming that what is imagined could possibly occur. As such, the individual who imagines something is bound by certain (moral?) constraints which include potential personal consequences for the actions imagined should they be enacted.

One might note that fantasy as defined COULD include the destruction of oneself (if such would allow for the enactment of what is imagined-- thereby subtracting the constraints which would otherwise be necessitated by one's own personal involvement). I think that, at least at this level, fantasy suggests what is "immoral" assuming that "moral" defines the consequences of personal involvement and "immorality" is determined to have occurred when ones action is limited by such consequences to the destruction of oneself.

As such, one might kill oneself to attain one's imagined reality-- though note the paradox... that one may not truly attain what is imagined if dead, thus "proof" (by this definition) that such imaginings are merely *fantasized* (they contain a logical paradox which confines them to what is not possible).

How do you define "fantasy" such that it is moral?

Brett Lane Robertson
Indiana, USA
MindRecreation Metaphysical Assn.
BIO: ...........
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Message-ID: <> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andreas_Engstr=F6m?= <> To: "''" <> Subject: Re: virus: A "Confession" about "The Sign" Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:17:32 +0200
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Reply-To: (Brett Robertson) wrote:

>I hear that you are personally "sick" of being told what is right. I am
>sorry that you are unwilling to contribute at this time toward
>discussions which might help understand the terms

The terms are easily understood. What's their specific content (Brett's morality,
my morality, the morality of the "moral majority" *ick*) varies highly. Discussion
of this content has little to do with understanding of the terms themselves.


>(as you say, you will reject all definitions of morality with a force of

No, he rejects all attempts from you to define what he should consider a part of his own private morality. And so do I. I don't think anyone here rejects an attempt to define the semantic meaning of the *term* morality.

>willfulness... you will use the term "judgement" to define what is
>"judged to be wrong" but refuse to believe there is a single, or "true",
>basis for such judgement... and you will say that violation may be
>deemed to have occurred "with good reason" but, similarly, refuse to
>define [or even discuss] an unquestionable foundation for such

No such foundation could possibly be "unquestionable".

>Defining "morality" as "right action" doesn't place me in a position to
>judge what is right and wrong-- *truth* judges what is right and wrong
>(as in, it is right for a ball to roll downhill/ such that, an "immoral"
>ball is one which uses force to do what is un-natural... ie. roll

That's not *truth*. _If_ it's possible for a ball to roll uphill, it's not *truth* that all balls roll downhill. Neither is it necessarily *truth* that it should be immoral for a ball to roll uphill. The owerwhelming majority of mammals are quadrupedal, you (presumably, unless you always crawl) use force to stand up and walk on two legs. Is that immoral?

Morality shouldn't be based on statistics of what's "normal". It should be based on allowing the most freedom possible to everyone, while minimizing harm
to everyone, roughly speaking. It's not *true* in any way, it's defined to be what it is. All talk of "absolute morals" and things that are always wrong
or always right, in all times, in all circumstances, because of some kind of "built-in" morality of the universe, is in my opinion complete bollocks.

>My family were middle to upper class citizens who were monogamous, hard
>working, self-sacrificing, productive, and creative. They didn't
>instill in me the need to excuse behavior which is self-destructive.

Like fantasizing? Come on.. if that's what they taught you they couldn't possibly have been anywhere near "creative". Or perhaps they didn't want _you_ to be creative?

>I am willing to discuss "fantasy" further.

The concept of fantasy as harmful perversion is your own, and I don't think you're likely to find converts.. but, by all means, try.

>ps. I am also sorry you do not personally like the me/ you style of
>responding... please take your dislikes offlist or conform to the types
>of standards this style of forum evolves

Why should he do that? If you invent a new way to respond, which he (and I, and probably others as well) find very strange and confusing, shouldn't we tell you so? Is this part of your form of "morality"? If so, why? It's certainly not common netiquette, which you seem to imply..

He's conforming to the standards. You weren't. That doesn't necessarily imply
that you're wrong and he's right, but since you yourself seem to think that "non-standard" implies or equals "immoral", perhaps you should think twice before risking being "immoral"..