Re: virus: Rationality in the Cave

David McFadzean (
Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:25:09 -0700

At 11:59 PM 3/15/99 -0800, KMO wrote:

>> >A million accounts compiled by whom? Collected from where and for what
>> >reason? A million examples from mainstream media? From CSICOP? From the
>> >Psychic-Friends network?
>> A hypothetical random cross-section taken from all historical accounts
>> of supernatural experiences.
>I don't know.

OK, let me ask another question that should shed some light on what I'm thinking. There have been tens of thousands of UFO sightings. How many do you think were observations of real extraterrestrial spacecraft? UFO enthusiasts often make the claim that since all haven't been explained then at least *some* of them must be real, therefore we are being visited by ETs. Do you agree with this line of reasoning?

>I don't think that getting "outside of the cave" requires a change in
>the operation of the universe, i.e. I don't necessarily believe that the
>experience of transcendence requires or constitutes a supernatural

OK, so it is possible that "outside the cave" is "all in the mind"?

<Holotropic Mind excerpt snipped>

>If human brains are more like the televisions that recieve and process
>consciousness than like computers running a consciousness program, then
>even everyday experience and not just the experience of getting outside
>of the cave would seem supernatural to those who accept the standard
>metaphysical assumptions of the Western scientific model of the
>universe, and the experience of transcendence; of getting outside of the
>cave, would be no more "supernatural" than the experience of walking
>down the street.

Agreed, but that is a very big IF.

>If you've read this far, let me ask your indulgence and have you take a
>look at something I posted to the list a couple of weeks ago. It's an
>excerpt from an interview with Ken Wilber. Compare it to Grof excerpt
><Wilbur excerpt snipped>

Wilbur's analogy is superficially persuasive. Maybe meditation is an instrument that reveals heretofore unseen worlds. Maybe drugs are too. No doubt mentally ill people experience a world significantly unlike our own. Maybe my analogies are unfair, but I'm really interested in finding out if there is any way to tell the difference between these kinds of realities and hallucinations.

David McFadzean       
Memetic Engineer      
Church of Virus