re: Re: virus: Re:[genius] Sexism

Zloduska (
Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:25:17 -0600

SG wrote:

First of all, I have to make one thing clear: There is no way we are ever going to agree on this issue, if you stand by your "true statement", because I certainly will not budge. I heartily disagree with that idea with all of my being. Still, I am going to respond (hopefully for the last time).

I realize that you don't think rape is "right" or "okay", and that you're not a misogynist. However, your simple claim, were everyone to believe it, that a rapist suffers more, is a serious detriment to all that I'm trying to accomplish. Besides just thinking it's wrong, that's another reason why I am so opposed to your "philosophy". It's already hard enough to get people to acknowledge rape and sexism, and if it was accepted that women really don't suffer that much because of rape, that would be even more difficult.

Plus, I think it's just impossible for a criminal to commit the worst crime possible against someone, and yet somehow be hurt more by it.

>I get tired of the incongruity. Women are equal to men in all areas of
life including the corporate world, in combat, etc... But when it comes to violence between the sexes, women revert back to this "I'm the weaker sex...protect me from those big, bad men!"
>If you're equal, then quit playing the victim and kick the living shit out
of those rapist bastards.

I agree, and I do NOT revert back to that. Were you making a generalization? Rather, I think, protect the men from ME! I don't feel physically unequal just because I'm not as strong as most men. I'm still equipped to intimidate others and defend myself.

>I DO follow my principles, that's why they are MY principles. Since you
>are not some omnipotent deity, you obviously cannot observe me 24 hrs. a
>day to know this is true. Anyone who even casually knows me in real life,
>knows this is true. Don't be so quick to judge what you know nothing about.
>Your words betray you, is all.

No, you just assumed you knew whether or not I follow my own principles.

>Why do you live in fear of God?
>I don't live in fear. I'm uncomfortable with the unknown at times, though.

Well then, isn't that fear of the "unknown"?

>>My philosophy is that the biggest victim is the perpetrator. You may be
>raped, but you don't have to live life knowing that you are a filthy scum
>rapist. I feel sorry for people who are willing to stoop that low.
>I am speechless. My mouth is literally agape right now. That is the most
>awful, asinine, and stupid thing I have ever seen in black-and-white. I
>have no idea how to respond to such ignorance; I am taken aback by it. It
>disgusts me to my very depths.
>And do you know why you think that way? Because you're a self-righteous
ignoramus >that can't see the common element in all human beings.

"Self-righteous"? No, I don't think so. I'm not an ignoramus, either. What do you think is the common element in all human beings?

>You're no better than a televangelist pointing the finger at the "bad
guys". That is the >kind of thinking that created the racism and sexism that you seemingly despise.

Wrong, I don't have the qualities of a televangelist. What personal gain do I have (other than emotional) for empathizing with rape victims? For wanting to end sexual assault and sexism (other than my own safety)? Your analogy doesn't make sense. What's this crap about racism and sexism? "Seemingly despise"? Come on- get real. You *know* I am not a racist or a sexist, and I know it better than anyone else, although you like to accuse me of being one.

>I'd rather be raped than have my children murdered (BTW, I was raped when
I was 15).

I'd rather be dead than be raped, personally. I still don't see how the one who commits it could be worse off in this situation.

>You come to the wrong conclusions. I'm not against justice. If it wasn't
for consequences, such as jail time, there would be no way to redeem oneself. You would have no way of paying back, and thus, no way to start fresh.

To me, there is no justice in this case. There is no way to redeem yourself other than to NOT do it. There is no pay back for raping someone, because you cannot ever UN-rape them. There is no fresh start or erasing of the crime for the victim; why should there be for the perpetrator?

>I love human beings. I would suggest you rent a movie that reveals the humanness >of a criminal. Also, you would grow wiser if you did a bit of inventory on yourself, how >in the past you've done things that were hurtful to others. It might help you snap out of >the "I'm good, they're bad" meme.

Oh man. This does *not* compare. I never said I was perfect, or that I had never been hurtful to someone. So what if I told a lie to a friend five years ago and they found out? It doesn't matter. BECAUSE THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE. We are talking about sexism and rape here, and just because I may have made mistakes in my life, doesn't at all excuse what others do, or make it less terrible. For humanity as a whole, I am not guilty of the us/them meme, but of course when I examine sexism, rape, and other forms of violence, I think in terms of myself, and the "bad" others. I am not on trial here, but I never claimed to be guilt-free in my life. You're implying that I have that attitude.

And please don't tell me to go see "Dead Man Walking" to change my life. *gag* You know, I believe the time has come to stop making excuses for criminals, such as, "Oh, they are human, and you have sinned too." This is irrelevant. How does that change the nature of the crime?

>This shows how little you understand me.


>There you go again. You're good, I'm bad.
>I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't live a life that one can be proud of.

Oh yes, I am filled with shame...not.

>I'm not suffering from that incident. I don't hate that person. I feel
sorry for him. I hope that he has changed and is living a life that is worth living.

You know, I'm glad things worked out so well for you, and it is resolved. Generally, this is not the case. A lot of people do not want to forgive their attacker, and choose not to. I can understand this also. You must realize that for most sexual-assult survivors, they are screwed up for the rest of their life, and they do indeed suffer every single day. And as for the attacker, if they have it so damn bad, then why, oh why do they repeatedly do it again and again, or else never admit to their crime? It's not a simple cause-and-effect reason that makes people rape, as in they are in pain, and so they inflict in on someone else. They do it because they _can_, and there is no flimsy excuse.

>Why adopt a passive, apathetic attitude like that? Do you really think
>it's wise to say, "Oh well...I'm going to give up fighting against all the
>bad things in the world, because it seems too hard." There you go, trying
>to get me to just *accept* my condition, again. That is very flawed
>thinking. At first you said I should 'fight' and 'battle', yet you also
>assume my cause is futile.
>I never said to stop fighting. It's worth it to help even one individual
see the light.

Then why all the other "lighten up" remarks? I feel that I have no medium-intensity notch that I can adjust to suit the comfort of others. If I take something seriously, then that is all there is to it. That is why my buttons are pressed so easily. Understand?

>It doesn't turn me off. But I know from hearing others that it doesn't win
much sympathy.

What if I don't want sympathy- just results?

>I actually have more respect for women than you do.

False. You have no way of judging this for certain. I disagree, and you appear to be 'talking out of your ass' here. I have a lot more self-respect than you think, as well.

>I don't put them in the "helpless victim" category.

Neither do I; that is the _opposite_ of what I do!

>One of the most powerful images of this was in a James Woods movie (El
Salvador?), where a woman is being raped. She looked at him with strength. Her eyes were saying, "you can take my body against my will, but you'll never break my spirit".

What does this have to do with you having more respect for women than I do?! I've already made it quite clear that I am far from believing women to be helpless swans.

>Before using that firm voice of yours, I think you better get more
acquainted with the >common elements between you and a perpetrator of ghastly crimes such as rape. >You might be shocked to find your not a different animal after all.

Next you're going to be telling me I'm experiencing "cognitive dissonance". I don't think I'm a different animal from any other human being. Or different from many (non-human) animals; I feel a close kinship to them.

Basically, we cannot agree because I think your statement about the suffering of rapists, and your seemingly 'light' view of rape is wrong. Also, your belief is destructive to fighting sexual violence.