swastika memes

From: nv91-asa@mumrik.nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg)
Subject: Re: swastika memes
Date: 05 Dec 1994 15:18:36 GMT

Marc de Hingh wrote:
>A question that came up in a private conversation:	Can you become a
>nazi by staring at (contemplating/meditating on) a swastika?
>
>Like somewhere in a covert place of my mind I'm so overwhelmed by the
>beauty and power of the symbol that I will (unconsciously) support any
>ideology that carries this symbol...?

Probably not. The nazi meme contains much more information than is encoded in
the svastika. The symbol is merely a pointer to the meme. But a well designed
symbol can still help a meme, since some symbols obviously have strong ties
to the human subconscious (this is close to the Jungian archetypes), and often
give specific associations. For example, the swastika has a strong link to
movement, power and the sun. This can work as a bait for the meme ("That
flag looks interesting! I wonder who they are?"), to enforce the meme among
its hosts ("We are united under our flag!") and to spread awareness of the
meme (just look at political symbols painted as grafitti). 
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg			 	  	     Towards Ascension!
nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se   http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html
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From: guin@oregon.uoregon.edu (Guiniviere Marie Curfman)
Subject: swastika memes
Date: 5 Dec 1994 23:44:17 GMT

hingh wrote:
"Can you become a nazi by staring at ( contemplating/meditating on) a
swastika?"

Do you mean, "are memes able to be transmitted through a visual medium?"
If that is your question, the answer is certainly yes.  That would be
propaganda of the visual kind, whether it is governmental/commercial/
religious etc.  However, our Western culture in particular has a strange
but understandable association/reaction to the swastika.  The nazis were
certainly not the only folks to make use of this very ancient symbol.  
Check out the Buhdists, the Celts and especially the Teutons.  In fact,
the nazi party grabbed on to the symbol of the swastika in the year
1923 after a gentleman named Guido Von List had a particularly successful
time reanimating the German population's belief in the Teutonic/Germanic
mythos.  (He was not associated with the nazi party, by the way.)The
swastika at that time was instituted as the germanic Rune: Sowilo, which
means "invincible Will."  Sowilo is also the Rune of the sun.

hingh continues with:  "Like somewhere in a covert place of my mind, I am
so overwhelmed by the beauty and power of the symbol..."

To which I reply:  As am I.  However, I do not think that nazism in its
modern form is anything less than pathetic.  Modern day so called "nazis"
really have missed the point.  I also do not condone what atrocious acts
of violence that the nazis committed during the holocaust.  However, I do
not agree with certain p.c. beliefs that because of this, I should "turn
away from examining this disturbing period of history."  Rather, I am quite
interested in the roots of the original movement, as well as the undeniable
"rubber neck effect" that it seems to exert over the general populace.
(rubber-necking as in what people in cars do when driving by a very bad
accident.) 

It is my experience that the meme most associated with the nazi movement has
more to do with our modern conceptions of facism and totalarianism, and less
to do with any covert "flag staring" and subsequent meme tranferal that might
take place.

( Can you become a fruitcake just by staring at one?!!)
-Guiniviere

From: nv91-asa@themsen.nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg)
Subject: Re: swastika memes
Date: 08 Dec 1994 12:52:55 GMT

++marc wrote: 
>Maybe a pointer is enough to activate a meme that has always been present in
>my (and anyone's) mind.

That may be possible. A pointer makes the mind more aware of the meme, and
if it can make the meme sufficiently attractive (for example by surrounding
the symbol with festivities, happiness or other "hooks", subconscious power
or appearing again and again) the meme have a chance to infect.

>As a person living in this culture, I contain copies of virtually all
>main memes present in our meme pool.  That means I am a potential
>nazi, commie, radical feminist, jehovah witness and cyberpunk, all at the
>same time.	However none of these memes has enough power (over my mind) to
>actually control my behavior (and thus spread the meme efficiently).

There might be two parts of the meme-space of a human mind: one active,
containing all  memes which influence the behavior and thinking of the 
person, and one inactive containing memes which are not believed, but
available for the conscious mind. A symbol or other events can give
inactive memes the chance to become active, despite repression from the
active memes.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg			 	  	     Towards Ascension!
nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se   http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y

From: wormwinder@delphi.com
Subject: Re: swastika memes
Date: Fri, 9 DEC 94 00:43:20 -0500

hingh (hingh@xs4all.nl) writes:
 
>same time.	However none of these memes has enough power (over my mind) to
>actually control my behavior (and thus spread the meme efficiently).
 
Don't mean to nitpick, but you requested criticism.
Just because a meme has power over one's mind, it certainly
does not follow that the meme will thus be spread more
efficiently.
Things like commericialization speed up the decay of memes,
(while rapidly widening meme pools).  In general, but then
look at the Stones.
This could be expressed as efficiency or inefficiency
relative to one's subjective relation to time or one's
own particular pragmatic considerations.
(The desire to keep a club secret).
That's the minimal extreme.
Maximally, the memes control in your individual meme pool could
produce a behavioral response that could slaughter supporting
memes.  Say if a pro-lifer started killing Abortion Doctor's
to preserve the sanctity of human lfe.
Etc...
See the thing that seems interesting to me, so far, is the
amazing possibilities of dislocation between intenetionality of
mind owner 'x' and the intentionality of meme+memepool 'y'or meme
pool 'z.'
Or rather, the insidious gap that lies between the two.
That is the only thing that makes Hitler understandable to me.

From: Richard Pocklington (pockling@sfu.ca)
Date: 11 Dec 1994 00:37:11 GMT
> >As a person living in this culture, I contain copies of virtually all
> >main memes present in our meme pool.  That means I am a potential
> >nazi, commie, radical feminist, jehovah witness and cyberpunk, all at the
> >same time.  However none of these memes has enough power (over my mind) to
> >actually control my behavior (and thus spread the meme efficiently).
>
> There might be two parts of the meme-space of a human mind: one active,
> containing all  memes which influence the behavior and thinking of the
> person, and one inactive containing memes which are not believed, but
> available for the conscious mind. A symbol or other events can give
> inactive memes the chance to become active, despite repression from the
> active memes.

If we think of a human mind as a memetic ecosystem, then just as any
ecosystem has excess biotic potential, seeds, spores and resing stages of
numerous organisms, this potential can be triggered when the ecological
conditions change, putting the present ecosystem componants out of
equilibrium and allowing for some of the resting biota to begin
replication.  If you get a lot of this the whole thing can function as a
cybernetic system maintaining a type of ecosystem homeostasis (kind of
Gaia like, but not re ally, it's still 'bottom up', no 'top down' stuff).
Each time the conditions change the sysytem is pertubed such that the
dominant paradigm destroys itself with it's own waste products.  Thus the
biotic potential, or the memetic potential might act as part of this
personal homeostasi, or even cultural homeostasis keeping the little
hominids happy with whatever goes on in their heads...

Richard pocklington   pockling@sfu.ca

wormwinder@delphi.com writes:

"" See the thing that seems interesting to me, so far, is the
"" amazing possibilities of dislocation between intentionality of
"" mind owner 'x' and the intentionality of meme+memepool 'y'or meme
"" pool 'z.'
"" Or rather, the insidious gap that lies between the two.

Do you think memes or meme pools can be said to be really *intentional*?
Or is it only a figure of speech, just like the so-called 'selfishness'
of genes...?
What exactly does 'mind owner' refer to?  Can a meme own a mind?

From: peterbru@microsoft.com (Peter Bruinsma)
Subject: Re: swastika me mes
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 11:19:48 GMT

nv91-asa@themsen.nada.kth.se wrote:
> ++marc wrote:
[...]
> >As a person living in this culture, I contain copies of virtually all
> >main memes present in our meme pool.  That means I am a potential
> >nazi, commie, radical feminist, jehovah witness and cyberpunk, all at the
> >same time.  However none of these memes has enough power (over my mind) to
> >actually control my behavior (and thus spread the meme efficiently).
>
> There might be two parts of the meme-space of a human mind: one active,
> containing all  memes which influence the behavior and thinking of the
> person, and one inactive containing memes which are not believed, but
> available for the conscious mind. A symbol or other events can give
> inactive memes the chance to become active, despite repression from the
> active memes.

Perhaps, once meme A conquers meme B, meme A will contain a picture of Meme B.
For example, a person infected with the Christianity meme may disharm any
Evolution Theory memes because the Christianity meme has a built in defense 
mechanism against the Evolution Theory meme. Somehow, the Christianity meme
must identify the Evolution Theory meme before it can disharm it and therefore 
it has to contain some kind of picture or representation of it. 
So, your 'Belief System' meme (collection of memes in your mind) has built 
defenses against all sorts of memes that it encountered and was incompatible
with and subsequently conquered. In the process, pictures of these loser memes
are retained within other memes. 

Probably, the 'right' Evolution meme, one that perhaps contains a Trojan horse 
isomorphic meme can defeat the Christianity meme. So, who is to say that a 
meme could not be created which will bypass the existing defense mechanisms
against that meme in a given society? Scary stuff. 

Peter.