What is the most irresistible meme?
alt.memetics archives
18-22 July, 1994
Number of articles: 9
From: anon1fd0@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Name withheld by request)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: What is the most irresistible meme?
Date: 18 Jul 1994 07:40:03 -0600
Lets get a thread going here, what are some nominations for the
most irresistible meme?
Here are two from me:
1. The Gold-Bug. (i.e., get rich quick scheme, internet
chain letter)
2. The religious meme fostering a belief in immortality.
Whoever doesn't want to be rich and immortal raise your hand--see?
These memes _are_ powerful, because they meet deep psychological needs
within each of us.
Yours,
Jon.
ps. please jump right in and don't be afraid to post! thanks. :)
"What is the most irresistible meme?"
Uhm, the word 'irresistible' suggest that there is *someone* or *something*
that tries to resist memes..?
Is this an *individual* (=non-memetic) anti-meme "immune system"? I doubt
the existence of such a thing.
I'd say that the subjective experience of 'trying to resist a meme' is the
result of a conflict between memes (or between their phenotypes) inside one
mind. Memes make you want to resist memes.
In this respect, the most irresistible memes are the ones that have evolved
to resist all resistance from competing memes. These memes will probably
not give you the subjective experience of 'irresistibility'.
Some of these 'most irresistible memes' are
* The use of language for communication
* Washing oneself
* Wearing clothes
From: iam30974@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (least likely)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: Re: What is the most irresistible meme?
Date: 18 Jul 1994 20:25:46 GMT
anon1fd0@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Name withheld by request) writes:
[..deleted for brevity..]
> Whoever doesn't want to be rich and immortal raise your hand--see?
>These memes _are_ powerful, because they meet deep psychological needs
>within each of us.
>ps. please jump right in and don't be afraid to post! thanks. :)
"I don't want to be rich and immortal."
This belief arises from a desire to live through all aspects and periods
of life. Ask most people beyond the age of 70 if they would NOT want to be
immortal, and a much larger percentage would indeed raise their hands.
I think fear of the unknown (in this case, a fear of death) is a large
motivating factor in our lives, pushing the incredibly popular 'carpe diem'
principle to new heights. For example, why exercise, why save money, why
not do all these things at a much later date? Because our lives are always
on a hot-plate, and we don't want to die full of regrets.
I think the immortality thing is just too tied to our biology to be a meme
itself, because it runs counter to much more forceful memes such as religion.
I mean, to live forever is to avoid the hopes and prayers of whatever after-
life one's religion promises. So we want to live forever because we have
an almost inherent distrust of our physiology.
Although, come to think of it, that distrust has to come from some source..
But, while it looks like I now disagree with myself, I think beliefs in
the exactitude of science and beliefs in a supreme being or creator are
by far the most interesting, if for no other reason, because most people
seem to hold some level of both beliefs, and the way they utilize these
two beliefs in rationalizing the world around them is as unique as their
fingerprint.
--
-ivan [views on sexuality and gender roles a close third...]
From: ssn@pnet1.pnet.com (South Street North Studios)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: Re: What is the most irresistible meme?
Date: 19 Jul 1994 22:56:00 -0400
Name withheld by request (anon1fd0@nyx10.cs.du.edu) pondered:
=> Lets get a thread going here, what are some nominations for the
=> most irresistible meme?
=> Here are two from me:
=> 1. The Gold-Bug. (i.e., get rich quick scheme, internet
=> chain letter)
Also, a virus for MS-DOS machines...argh! But you can find loads of
powerful memetic phrases in the hypertext VSUM virus listing by Patricia
Hoffman... It seems like (even foreign) virus writers need to put some
phrase or idea into the code, even if it never gets displayed...
Unfortunately, this has become the key tag in chasing down virii by their
"footprint"... Take a close look at some of the phrases, meant to inspire
fear by the power of memes sometimes independent of language.
Food for thought.
=> 2. The religious meme fostering a belief in immortality.
BIG time. I never really saw ideas in these little "chunks" until I
started reading the writings of Joseph Campbell. Even the sounds of the
words have great visceral power, and so that of the mental construct is
amplified, deepened.
=> Whoever doesn't want to be rich and immortal raise your hand--see?
=> These memes _are_ powerful, because they meet deep psychological needs
=> within each of us.
...and other needs. Spiritual. Physical. Mental. They comfort us, mock
us, release us, hide us. It's rather interesting watching the "looker
inside" practice some sort of hide-and-seek with itself. It's more than
just a mental meandering, methinks. It's the true substrate our very
cognition...The foundation of who and what we think we are...
Any thoughts out there?
=-= Patrick Jordan =-=
--
__ __ __
(_ _ _|_ |_ (_ _|_ ._ _ _ _|_ |\ | _ ._ _|_ |_ (_ _|_ _|. _ _
__)(_)|_| |_ | | __) |_ | (/_(/_ |_ | \|(_)| |_ | | __) |_|_|(_||(_)_>
ssn@pcnet.com \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Get it together
From: nv91-asa@adverts.nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: Re: What is the most irresistible meme?
Date: 20 Jul 94 16:58:05
> Lets get a thread going here, what are some nominations for the
>most irresistible meme?
>
> Here are two from me:
>
> 1. The Gold-Bug. (i.e., get rich quick scheme, internet
> chain letter)
>
> 2. The religious meme fostering a belief in immortality.
Note that both are tied to survival. In the old times the first meme
was more of "get lots of food quick" (note that obesity is a sign of
status in many cultures where food is scarce). With the development
of trade, money could buy food, so the meme made a transition. Money
also gives access to many other pleasures, which strengthens the meme
further. The second seems to have developed out of the will to survive
present in most higher living beings. Since there was no obvious
way to ensure immortality, an invented way would do, especially since
it couldn't be disproved ("Hey, nobody has returned from death and
said there was no afterlife!").
This ties in nicely with the idea of the "Bio-Survival Circuit" (From
Leary, but also present in many other psychological models. See
"Prometheus Rising" by Robert Anton Wilson for a treatment of the Leary
8-circuit model. Lots of interesting ideas for memetics, but it must
be read with a ton of salt). This "circuit" is more or less hardwired
into our brains, taking care of survival, "base emotions" and the
pursuit of safety. It tends to override other circuits (like
agression-territoriality and the verbal level) if threatened or
disturbed. This is a very powerful hook for many memes, and its also
possible that it can override the higher structures if its in a positive
state, thus creating a "trapdoor" for memes overriding other memetic
defences. Even rational people can become irrational when bitten by
the Gold Bug, as the meme uses the Bio-Survival level to override or
subvert other levels using threats of poverty and starving and
promises of wealth and pleasure.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
From: mac@w617gjg9.gjames.com.au (John MacDonald)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: Re: What is the most irresistible meme?
Date: 21 Jul 1994 07:45:22 +1000
Anders Sandberg (nv91-asa@adverts.nada.kth.se) wrote:
>>
>> 1. The Gold-Bug. (i.e., get rich quick scheme, internet
>> chain letter)
>>
>> 2. The religious meme fostering a belief in immortality.
>
>Note that both are tied to survival. In the old times the first meme
>was more of "get lots of food quick" (note that obesity is a sign of
>status in many cultures where food is scarce). With the development
>of trade, money could buy food, so the meme made a transition. Money
>also gives access to many other pleasures, which strengthens the meme
>further. The second seems to have developed out of the will to survive
>present in most higher living beings. Since there was no obvious
>way to ensure immortality, an invented way would do, especially since
>it couldn't be disproved ("Hey, nobody has returned from death and
>said there was no afterlife!").
>
Actually this makes sense, though I tend towards the negative - instead of
trying to envisage a continuation of existence, I favour the "Denial of
Death" concept so favoured by psychoanalysts. Humanity is blessed (cursed)
with the ability to perceive a future, but is frustrated by the inability to
see past the horizon of death. The anxiety caused by the basic inability
to accept that one's own existence may come to an abrupt end leads to
denial and an attempt to ratonalise a continuation. Religious memes flood
a vacuum of ignorance to cover what lies over the horizon.
Your coments on the idea of gathering food as a meme is also interesting.
One would assume that initialy this was instinctual - but clearly it
becomes cultural in terms of what is sen as food within a culture. At what
point can a meme be said to make this transition, and how can the factors
causing transition best be explained?
>This ties in nicely with the idea of the "Bio-Survival Circuit" (From
>Leary, but also present in many other psychological models. See
>"Prometheus Rising" by Robert Anton Wilson for a treatment of the Leary
>8-circuit model. Lots of interesting ideas for memetics, but it must
>be read with a ton of salt). This "circuit" is more or less hardwired
>into our brains, taking care of survival, "base emotions" and the
>pursuit of safety. It tends to override other circuits (like
>agression-territoriality and the verbal level) if threatened or
>disturbed. This is a very powerful hook for many memes, and its also
>possible that it can override the higher structures if its in a positive
>state, thus creating a "trapdoor" for memes overriding other memetic
>defences. Even rational people can become irrational when bitten by
>the Gold Bug, as the meme uses the Bio-Survival level to override or
>subvert other levels using threats of poverty and starving and
>promises of wealth and pleasure.
>
Interesting. Without wanting to reify Leary's model, can we say that memes
can be hierarchially structured based on source within the brain - that is
can we identify different types of memes based on whether they originate
in instinctual, emotional or more intellectually abstract parts of the mind?
John Mac mac@gjames.com.au
P.S. Just as a complete aside, do you think that ascension can be caused
by the introduction of Techno excluded memes to the dominant paradigm
until a Kuhnian style shift occurs? (Maybe this hypothetical should go on
the mage-l list).
From: nv91-asa@stranglers.nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: Re: What is the most irresistible meme?
Date: 21 Jul 94 17:39:12
John Mac wrote:
>Actually this makes sense, though I tend towards the negative - instead of
>trying to envisage a continuation of existence, I favour the "Denial of
>Death" concept so favoured by psychoanalysts. Humanity is blessed (cursed)
>with the ability to perceive a future, but is frustrated by the inability to
>see past the horizon of death. The anxiety caused by the basic inability
>to accept that one's own existence may come to an abrupt end leads to
>denial and an attempt to ratonalise a continuation. Religious memes flood
>a vacuum of ignorance to cover what lies over the horizon.
Interesting. Yes, that explanation also makes sense. Memes can exploit both
the extremely powerful fear (remember, if your bio-survival circuit feels
threatened, it can override the others). At the same time, they can exploit
the positive effects of safety too, although they might be less powerful
compared to fear. Carrot and Stick.
>Your coments on the idea of gathering food as a meme is also interesting.
>One would assume that initialy this was instinctual - but clearly it
>becomes cultural in terms of what is sen as food within a culture. At what
> point can a meme be said to make this transition, and how can the factors
> causing transition best be explained?
Note that behaviors are a kind of hardwired memes, who are encoded in the
genes and change according to genetic evolution. They are not true memes,
but can act as ties for memes and learned behaviors. An animal has certain
preprogrammed feeding methods, but might learn new ones (if it is capable
to this, and connect them to the hardwired ones). Such memes may use the
structures in the instinctual feeding behavior to its purposes, just like
some viri use host genes to supplement their own. I don't think there are
any clear line where a meme leaves the symbiosis with survival-feeding
and becomes a free meme, maybe it never happens (hunger is a prerequisite
for cooking). Many memes, especially the more powerful ones, connect to
hard- or firm-wired structures in out brains, which give them extra power
as they get the authority of the nervous system behind themselves :-)
>Interesting. Without wanting to reify Leary's model, can we say that memes
>can be hierarchially structured based on source within the brain - that is
>can we identify different types of memes based on whether they originate
>in instinctual, emotional or more intellectually abstract parts of the mind?
Yes, that ought to be possible to some extent. The problem is of course
that the mind isn't built in any clear or planned fashion, we just model
it so. But if we follow the circuit model, we might search for both the
origin of a meme (the structure it was originally dependent upon, if any),
its current main ties (which structures it connect to), and what structures
it contains hooks to. Lets try the Leary model (there are probably other
models which will do just as well, but I'm familiar with this one).
For example, the Religion Meme might have originated in the Bio-Survival
circuit as fear of death, and still gets its power from this. It is transfered
mainly using the Semantic Circuit (holy books, sacred teaching, discussion)
and the Social-Sexual Circuit (upbringing, social norms and rituals). It
also seems to hook into the Fifth Circuit, the Neurosomatic Circuit
responsible for feelings of rapture and/or enlightenment, which is a very
powerful way of attracting new hosts.
The "Kilroy Was Here" Meme is mainly tied to a wish to mark territoriality
(the Territorial Circuit). It is spread completely through verbal form,
using hosts who wish to mark territoriality by grafitti (this is often
hidden under a surface of humor in this case, tied to the Semantic Circuit).
Note, BTW, that this meme seems to have been out-competed by the more
aggressive tags.
>P.S. Just as a complete aside, do you think that ascension can be caused
>by the introduction of Techno excluded memes to the dominant paradigm
>until a Kuhnian style shift occurs? (Maybe this hypothetical should go on
>the mage-l list).
Its a relevant, although rather narrow subject. Mage: the Ascension is
really about memetics, although it also involves realitybending mages.
Note that the Technocratic memes are very aggressive against competitors
(in the middle ages everything strange was "magic","demonic" or "divine",
today strange things are supposed to have a single explanation or be
frauds). Memes designed to infiltrate the dominant paradigm must be able
to spread despite this, and to multiply and mutate.
In a way this is the situation in the simulations of the Iterated Prisoners
dilemma: a population of defectors (the Technocracy memes) is stable, but
a small population of cooperators (Tradition memes) can if its sufficiently
large suddenly grow and become dominant. This might have been how the
Technocracy originally came to domination over the Tradition memes.
Note however, that the situation is highly complex as there are memeticists
(mages) on both sides, designing counter-memes and reinforcing their own
memes. Interesting, a wholly new take on the game...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
nv91-asa@hemul.nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/main.html
GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
From: leeb@kralizec.zeta.org.au (Lee Borkman)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: Re: What is the most irresistible meme?
Date: 22 Jul 1994 01:54:51 +1000
Summary: Some suggestions for irresistible memes are given.
The most irresistible (doesn't imply GOOD, true, etc, however) memes are likely
to be sub-conscious.
"I exist"
"You exist"
"I am the centre of the universe"
As to memes that make their existence painfully obvious, I believe that Whitney
Houston's godawful version of "I Will Always Love You" is all too hard to erase
from the mind; it spreads like the worst chain letter, and the consequences
are every bit as dire.
Lee Borkman.
From: toehser@cais.cais.com (Tom Oehser)
Newsgroups: alt.memetics
Subject: Re: What is the most irresistible meme?
Date: 21 Jul 1994 18:28:44 GMT
> Whoever doesn't want to be rich and immortal raise your hand--see?
Can a distinction be made between some inherent quality of "wanting to be
rich and immortal" and the effect of the meme itself? How can you say
that these desires attract the "gold bug" meme and the "religious" meme-
it seems more that those desires are part of the 'cellular structure' of
the meme it self and are propogated along with it. A carrier of the
religion/immortality meme has a 'dwelling on fear of death' structure,
which manifests by an 'evangelizing others' to reduce thier threat to the
meme. Saying "Whoever doesn't...." just shows how prevalent exposure to
this meme is.
-Tom